Mindfulness Meets Innovation: Navigating Legal Practice with Calmness & Clarity. A Conversation with Courtney Schulnick. (Epi. #195)

GUEST BIO
Courtney Schulnick is a mindfulness teacher and attorney. Her experience with stress and anxiety in trying to find balance between the demands of being a parent and working as a litigator became her path to mindfulness. In an effort to better manage her anxiety and the stressors associated with litigation and life in general, she enrolled in the Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) Program offered at the Myrna Brind Center for Mindfulness at Jefferson in Philadelphia, PA. Courtney noticed the ways in which the practice of mindfulness increasingly enriched her life on both a professional and personal level. A desire to deepen her own practice and share the gift of mindfulness with others encouraged her to complete the extensive teacher training at Jefferson, where she now teaches the MBSR Program. Courtney pursues her passion of helping people by teaching mindfulness so that they, too, can live more fully in the present moment and achieve greater balance, vitality and health.

Summary:
In this illuminating episode, we explore the powerful integration of mindfulness practices within the legal profession. Our guest, Courtney Sholnik, a seasoned attorney and mindfulness teacher, shares her transformative journey from a stressed-out litigator to a beacon of calm in the courtroom.

Key Insights:

• How mindfulness techniques can enhance decision-making and ethical considerations in law
• The surprising shift in acceptance of mindfulness practices in corporate environments
• Practical ways to incorporate min

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Transcript

[00:00:04 - 00:00:05]
 Well, greetings, Courtney.

[00:00:06 - 00:00:11]
 Hi. Thank you for inviting me to be on your show. I'm so excited to be here with you today.

[00:00:12 - 00:00:27]
 I am so excited that we connected over LinkedIn, and now here we are in the world of podcasting together. And congratulations. You recently launched, with your partner, a podcast.

[00:00:27 - 00:00:53]
 Yes. It's called Conscious Corner with Annie and Courtney. Annie is an executive life coach. I'm an attorney, as well as a mindfulness teacher. So we sort of combine our various expertise and have really interesting guests on and try to educate people while also keeping it fun and exciting. So, yeah, thank you so much. I'm really proud of the podcast, and.

[00:00:53 - 00:01:45]
 I find it so interesting. Just before we hit record, we talked about the niche and having combined two what seem like polar areas, like yours is law and mindfulness, and for me, it's similar, but the modality is more deeper in meditation and technology, and it works. And you're the saying something. I'd love for you to reiterate how there was a time, maybe not so long ago for both of us, where pulling in this very heart centered practice into this very cerebral area may not have been well received. And I was told years ago a lot of what I was doing was dead end or to Woohoo.

[00:01:45 - 00:03:40]
 Yeah. Yeah. That was one of the. In the earlier episodes that Annie and I had, that was one of the themes of our podcast, because I think that some people do have this view of meditation or mindfulness as woo woo or hippy dippy. And that was pretty much my experience within the legal sector at first. But I feel like, and I'm not sure if it's a result of the pandemic. Like, in some way, it's been a blessing in disguise in the sense that people are opening up more to some of these contemplative practices as a way to support ourselves with the stressors of the world. But when people learned that I was a litigator and I would have a sign on my door that would say, please do not disturb meditation in session, it was like, what is she doing in there? But it was something that I learned and something that I believe so strongly that I'll never let go. It's really been a life saver in terms of helping me to better manage stress and anxiety, a lot of which stems from the work that I do as being a litigator and just the ability to know that it's something that's innate, that we all have the ability to be aware in the present and how great that we can notice how we are so that in that very moment, we can see how we can take the best of care of ourselves, so it makes a difference in the work that we do, be it in the tech field, in the legal field, in just sort of existing in the world as we know it.

[00:03:41 - 00:03:57]
 And Courtney, I am really curious. How did you integrate this modality, mindfulness at large, as well as meditation? Maybe you can step us through your journey or the catalyst.

[00:03:57 - 00:10:42]
 Sure. Sure. I had been struggling with anxiety for a really long time. As a young child, my mind was off worrying about what's to come. And even at a young age, I was very much a perfectionist. Everything in my room had to be just so. The way I looked, I wanted everything to be perfect. And how I performed in sports or at school, I was very much an overachiever. And that theme, or sort of the perfectionist in me, it just grew and grew and grew as I got older and came out in various ways that really weren't healthy or supportive. So I worked with a therapist who helped me to better manage the stressors in my life. A lot of the stress sort of intensified when I started practicing law, not wanting to make a mistake in my cases, and really just being unsure of myself. And it grew as I started to have a family and was trying to find a way to balance the demands of being an attorney with the demands of being a wife and a mother. I just found that the stress and anxiety intensified. So I continued working with my therapist, who was helpful, but she at one point recommended that I look into the mindfulness based stress reduction program, which is an eight week program. You learn various formal meditations. There's a didactic piece to it, there's a full day meditation, a full day retreat towards the end of the program. And at the time, I had a very young child and I had a newborn. And so the thought of committing myself to yet one more thing, it just seemed overwhelming. But the sort of resources that I was turning to to try and manage my anxiety, they weren't really helping in the same way. And when I was at work, I was constantly worrying about messing something up, or maybe I was feeling bad because I wasn't fully present with my husband or one of my children. Then when I was at home with them, I was thinking about something for work or, you know, it's just constant push and pull. And I decided that I was going to look into the MBSR program, this mindfulness based stress reduction program. So I enrolled. And early on, probably about three weeks into the program, I started to recognize how it was helping me how I was starting to perceive some of the stressors in my life, whether it was something in the personal sector or it was something that was coming up for me and the work that I did as an attorney, that it wasn't so overwhelming that I was able to be with it and not go into full fight or flight mode. And I also started to notice just how judgmental I was of myself, like 99% of the day. So I started sharing with some of my colleagues what I was, this course that I was in. And one person in particular was really interested in what it was about and suggested that I give hour long presentation within the firm to talk about what mindfulness is and how it. It can support other people, how it can support our firm, our colleagues, how it could really help us to be better attorneys, to feel more present, to reduce stress and anxiety. So I gave the presentation. It was during lunchtime, and it was really well received. And it encouraged me to strengthen not only my personal practice, but I really enjoyed. I really enjoyed sharing mindfulness tools and resources with others and sharing my own experience, the ways it's helped me. So I deepened my own practice. I continued with a regular meditation practice, but I also committed to the intensive program at Jefferson, where I took the teaching practicum so that I could learn how to teach mindfulness. And I also interned with the associate director at the center for Mindfulness at Jefferson in Philadelphia. And I started my own business, Courtney Sholnik, mindfulness with. At first, I was focusing within the legal sector, like explaining, you know, here's what comes up. Here are the stressors that are inherent to working as a lawyer, and here are some ways in which we can practice really connecting with the present moment, recognizing what's coming up for us, and seeing how can we support ourselves to be with all that is difficult or challenging. So it started off with just giving, like, 1 hour CLE courses or workshops within the legal sector, and then it grew to the point where I was offering six week programs in the workplace. So it wasn't just law firms or corporations where they were having me offer these tools to lawyers, but all different types of corporations or professions. And then, most recently, I joined the team of teachers at the center for Mindfulness at Jefferson. So it's really been pretty organic. It's just been something that I was pretty much something that I came into from the work that I do as an attorney. And then in turn, I feel like I can give back to the legal community and beyond because of my practice and because of what I've learned from.

[00:10:42 - 00:11:03]
 The teaching perspective and this practice that you've now cultivated now or able to even now teach others from the perspective of an attorney, how would you say that this has shifted how you approach and react to work?

[00:11:04 - 00:13:31]
 So just what you said, the word react. So I was very reactive. Like, I would see an email from an attorney on the other side and right away, I mean, I would fire something off, or I would. Someone would. Maybe if I prepared a brief for one of the senior partners and they didn't like something about it. I was very quick, very reactive, to be highly critical of myself. So that word you said, react, that kind of summed everything up in my world. With mindfulness, I was able to pause and notice what was coming up within me, whether it was how I was feeling within the body, what I was telling myself, because nine times out of ten, it wasn't kind. And just the ability to see that, to start to recognize how reactive I was, how some of the things I was thinking or telling myself, the ability to recognize that is what created some space for me to. Okay, like Courtney, you know, notice what's here. Maybe invite your shoulders to relax a bit, maybe take a few relaxing sighs, maybe not having to buy into those thoughts. Like, you know, you're not going to get fired because you didn't have your brief be just so. So all these different angles. I just started to notice how mindfulness can really help us. And so with that awareness, I stepped out of reactivity. I found more skillful ways of how to respond in the moment. Like the example I gave about firing off an email that I would later regret, like, I didn't have to respond right in that moment. I could go take a mindful walk. I could go get a cup of coffee. I could have lunch. I didn't have to, in that moment, just say or do something that later on, I was going to feel badly about. So more and more, I noticed that that space, that awareness, and that really, it's like a superpower, in a sense, the ability to choose how to most skillfully respond at any given moment.

[00:13:33 - 00:13:47]
 And I imagine that this has now permeated this shift in behavior or approach. I imagine it's permeated into your personal life now.

[00:13:48 - 00:14:53]
 It has. It's not to say, I will put this out there. It's not to say that I don't have moments where I'm like, oh, my gosh, why did I say that? Or, ugh, why did I do that? I'm very much human. And I say, and do things that later I think, okay, that wasn't the most wise choice on my end, but just the ability to be kinder to myself, to not feel like every single moment I have to be doing something and doing it perfectly this way or that way. Like, just to be more gentle with myself and to give myself moments, to simply be. That has really been the game changer for me. It's allowed me to heal in many ways and to learn and grow from really just resting in the here and now.

[00:14:55 - 00:15:05]
 It sounds like you've given yourself the ability of grace, and that is the gift, right? To heal.

[00:15:05 - 00:16:40]
 It is. It is. And sort of stepping back, what I noticed is, before I learned mindfulness, and I'm still very much prone, I'm very much a doer. It's not that I'm becoming a complacent or letting deadlines come and go. You know, I'm not meeting deadlines. It's I'm still, if anything, I'm, I'm more, I'm more skillful with my time. But just noticing how hard we can be on ourselves that especially as lawyers and, and people working in other really stressful professions, that we don't let ourselves rest and disconnect from all the doing. I know before we started taping the podcast, you and I were talking a bit about technology, and I think that we're so connected in so many different ways, whether it's social media or email or what have you, that we become very disconnected from ourselves and we're not able to check in and notice how we are. So it was more of this gift that I could actually notice what's here and then the ability to see that is what would help me to understand, like, what's going to serve me in this moment. Like, how can I support myself to be here in this moment?

[00:16:43 - 00:17:04]
 You remind me of a lot of the, I would say evolutionary shifts. I've made their micro shifts sometimes, and I'm by no means perfect, it's constant. But the ability to, I think I ask a lot of why? Why now?

[00:17:05 - 00:17:12]
 Yeah. So you're curious, like, what's happening? Why is this happening now?

[00:17:13 - 00:17:32]
 Well, and I ask myself, like, when I, because we talk about yours talking about this, and I'm very similar, they're very action oriented. Get things done to the point it may sound completely insane, but even get the meditation done, get it done right, get the breath work done. You got it done right.

[00:17:32 - 00:19:04]
 Yeah. And I tend to be like, I have all my list for what I want to accomplish in a day. Or in a week or in a month. And I have to be careful with that, too, because I don't want to make this practice, mindfulness practice another thing on my to do list. Like, I don't want to just check it off and say, okay, I got in ten minutes today, or I got in 30 minutes today. Orlando, I really try to be conscious about that. And even in those moments when you said sort of, you asked me, like, how is this sort of. I forget how you exactly framed it, but something about how it's been woven into my personal life. Like, it's gotten to the point where sometimes there are those days where something gets in the way, and maybe we have on our to do list, I'm going to wake up at this time, and I'm going to sit for this amount of time, and I'm going to do formal meditation. But we can find ways to informally weave mindfulness into our everyday. So I'm just noticing that I appreciate less rigidity and being more gentle and forgiving in ways where before, if I didn't have everything be just so, and I didn't have all my boxes by the end of the day be checked off or things crossed off, I would beat myself up about that, too.

[00:19:05 - 00:19:27]
 Yes, I've been there. Spreadsheets and completely OCD for every detail of life, whether it's get my smoothie in, get my grounding walking in, get my 20 minutes of meditation. It's just after a while, I felt like a robot, and it just doesn't work that way.

[00:19:27 - 00:20:21]
 Yeah. Yeah. And that's important. It's important the way we look at this practice. And if we're really rigid with ourselves and we don't feel like we're doing it the right way or we're doing a good job at it, then it's gonna backfire. And I feel like we're probably not gonna even want to practice because we just feel like we're not good enough at the way that we're doing it. So it is really, it's just yet another opportunity to notice some of our habitual ways to notice when we're. When we're giving ourselves a hard time. And then with that awareness, you can be mindful. You can cultivate these qualities that we really do grow with a regular practice.

[00:20:22 - 00:20:51]
 Now, Courtney, you mentioned at the very beginning something. Maybe it was before we hit record, but the fact that your corporation, where you work, there is an openness now to what you're doing. However, both of us probably agree that some of these more spiritual modalities maybe 1015 years ago would not have been integrated. Have you noticed a shift in others who have started to embrace it with you?

[00:20:51 - 00:22:58]
 For sure, for sure. And within my, where I work, I've been with the law firm where I work, Marshall Dennehy, for close to two decades now. So they sort of. I'm known as, like, the mindfulness guru, which I laugh at because I don't know if I'm a guru, but I'm sort of the mindfulness woman at the firm. And. And initially, they would just be wondering, what is this mindfulness about? But because I've been offering more and more opportunities to learn, and people have been interested in learning more about what mindfulness is, they're like, okay, there's something to this. Like, it's not some hippy dippy type practice. And in the legal setting in particular, people can be skeptical about mindfulness or the ways in which it allegedly benefits us. And once you show them, once you share scientific research with them or show a video of the ways in which we can actually change the. The structure of the brain, then you can grab their attention a bit more. And now, more than ever, I think there is so much out there, so much scientific backing that shows the real benefits to practicing mindfulness. So there had, in my experience, just from when I, ten years ago, when I started talking about mindfulness, and there was some resistance to it. Fast forward to today, or even in the last year, people not only within my law firm, but in the legal community as a whole, are much more curious and willing to listen than they maybe were five, six, seven, even ten years ago.

[00:22:59 - 00:23:23]
 And the benefits are so strong, experienced it. And I can say that it only gets better because if you stay consistent, stay committed to it, you're slowly reaping the benefits. You're cultivating something that's neuroplasticity combined with a whole lot of other things.

[00:23:23 - 00:24:01]
 Yeah, yeah. And it's not always easy. It's intuitive. It's, you know, we say, like, we don't want to effort so much that we make it like work or a job, but difficult emotions, difficult sensations with practice. And as our practice deepens and more and more comes up, we say it's not for the faint of heart. It can be challenging at times, but the more and more we're willing to be with what's challenging, whether it's emotions or sensations, the more we can learn and grow from it.

[00:24:02 - 00:24:10]
 And sitting with those emotions, I can imagine when you're making critical decisions in the legal field can be overwhelming.

[00:24:11 - 00:25:46]
 Yeah, I mean, you, I think, at least in my experience, you don't want to make the wrong decision. You want to do things the right way, or it's very easy to get so caught up in a certain outcome that you want to achieve for a client that sometimes you're missing, like, what's here in the present moment when you're so caught up in what it is you want and you're striving so hard, or maybe you're reflecting on a case that didn't go as well as you would have liked for it to have gone. So you're resisting, you know, what was or giving yourself a hard time or doubting your ability. But the way to really get optimal results in the future is to show up for the present moment. And that, I think for an attorney who is constantly, I think it's just the nature of the work that we do. We're very judgmental of ourselves, and we want to get great outcomes that comes from a very good place because we care. We care about the work that we do. We care about our clients. But we also have to recognize that if we're not aware in the present moment, that can make all the difference in what we can achieve at the end of the day in our cases. So coming back again and again to this moment and being able to choose how to respond in wise ways, that's going to make all the difference in what we achieve in our cases.

[00:25:47 - 00:26:11]
 That's wonderful. And I imagine maybe you can clarify, how has this affected how people perceive what is ethical versus non ethical and consciousness being involved? Because I think the more you meditate, the more conscious, like you were saying earlier, more aware you become.

[00:26:11 - 00:29:10]
 Yeah. So what's coming up when you ask that question? Two. Two sort of directions. One is under the rules of professional responsibility. Like, we have a duty to be ethical and to be ethical and to make wise choices. We ourselves, we have to be in a space where we're physically, mentally, emotionally, we're in a good place. If we're, you know, working to the point where we're exhausted and potentially reaching burnout, well, then we're not going to be able to be our client's most zealous advocate. So in terms of being ethical, it comes back to the awareness piece. Like, we really want to be self aware. We want to notice how we are both in mind and body and take good care of ourselves. And that, in turn, is going to allow us to do a better job for our clients and in our cases. And then the other part, I'm trying to remember in terms of being ethical, I think when we're constantly doing and we fall into what's been coined as autopilot mode, like we don't give ourselves moments to rest, I don't think we're able to really feel into our bodies. We get so caught up in the mind in sort of resolving and fixing. But I know for me, when there's a bit of a slowing down and I can really feel into the body, and I'm not talking like, you don't have to figure anything out, but just tapping into what feels right, like what feels the most. Like the most ethical decision, it takes a certain slowing down, and we're not able to slow down when we're in this constant mode of doing. So these are the two branches that are coming up that we have an obligation under the rules to make ethical choices. And the way that we do that is to make sure we're in a good place so that we can make wise choice. But then to also not fall into autopilot and just think just because we did one thing a certain way in one case, that it's going to apply. Like, this is what this client wants. There needs to be a bit of slowing down so that we can see what's here clearly, but also feel into what's here for us, like, what feels right both in mind and body.

[00:29:11 - 00:29:58]
 That's wonderful. I know I want to go deeper into a variety of things you've touched upon. I'll definitely be having you back. But one thing I like to kind of cycle back to something you and I had talked about before I hit record is a hot topic, which is AI. There's a lot of ethical concerns, and as I mentioned, I'm focused on authenticity in AI and social media. Tell me your experience so far. Agnostic to some of the impressions outside world gives you of things that surface up for you when you think about utilizing those technologies.

[00:29:59 - 00:32:02]
 Yeah, and I'll admit I'm newer. I'm definitely out of. I mean, you've been. Before you hit record, I heard that you've been researching and been involved for like, 25 years. I mean, that, that's, that's a long time. So in that respect, I'm a newbie with it. So speaking of ethics, like, as an attorney, I was very concerned, like, how does this play out if I'm trying to use it to help me strategize in one of my cases? Like, I want to be careful that I'm nothing. Releasing clients personal information and so not fully understanding it. I sort of was tiptoeing around it. I will say from an efficiency standpoint, I've sort of played around with it in some of the work that I do on the mindfulness front with coming up with a workshop that I want to offer to in house counsel for a company, or I'm looking to find out ways that I can really offer a presentation that's going to help judges. Like, I'll kind of use AI or chat GBD as a creative source. And it's just, it's very helpful. It's almost as if I was sitting in a room with some of my colleagues and we're sort of having a conversation, but here I am, you know, just typing some questions into a computer. So I found it to be complimentary. I don't rely on it solely, and I would never plug in information and just take it and turn it into, you know, a brief to submit to the court. Or if I'm going to teach a program on mindfulness, I'm not going to just take exactly what it's telling me. But I've found it to really complement the work that I do. And in terms of, from a time perspective, it's been very efficient.

[00:32:04 - 00:32:39]
 I agree with the efficiency part, and I actually go deeper into that in various content I'm now producing. But the term I use over and over is streamline. And even when I imagine, like, when we practice our mindfulness, it's a routine, yet it's not a slap together. It's a routine. I imagine you build in some time efficiency into it and streamlining as a mother. And you said you're a mother of three children?

[00:32:39 - 00:32:46]
 Yeah. Yeah. I had three boys, ages 710 and 14.

[00:32:46 - 00:32:57]
 Okay. My son is the average of maybe all of them. He's a little bit. I've got one. But even then, it does require a lot of planning and efficiency.

[00:32:58 - 00:32:58]
 Yeah.

[00:32:58 - 00:33:30]
 And being streamlined can never hurt. And while there's a lot of fear and ethical concerns and other concerns that are all valid, if we could utilize those technologies with wisdom, with knowledge, I believe we could streamline areas. And it can only help us because why would any of us want to spend 20 more minutes somewhere here, more creative and maybe even relax?

[00:33:31 - 00:35:27]
 Well, I'm going to admit I even brought mindfulness into my relationship with AI because I was so resistant to it. It just did not feel right to me, but it was because I didn't know about it. And so I was like, what's coming up for me? Why do I have so much resistance to AI or you know, I heard this one. We have this joke in our family when it's someone's birthday, my uncle would send this elaborate text. It's a chain, and there's like, 20 something of us on it. And pre chat GPD, he was. They were very heartfelt. He wrote them themselves. But then once chat GBT, at least it was probably around for a while. But once it became more mainstream, he started sending out these eloquent messages. And we know, we would know that it was definitely different, sort of like a tone than his. But I was like, oh, no, no, no. I'm not gonna do anything like that. But I actually brought mindfulness into it to see, like, what's coming up for me. Why am I so resistant to this? And the more I could see that and be with that, the more curious I got. So I actually, I mentioned earlier that some of the attitudinal foundations, we can deepen them with mindfulness. One being curiosity, another being openness, another one is nonjudgment. So all these things were coming up for me in the context of AI. And once I could see that, I was like, okay, let's take a different spin. Let's look at this in a different light. Let's try taking a different, you know, having a different perspective. And then once you can see the ways it can be beneficial without feeling like you're using it in an unethical way, I think it just. You find ways that it can complement what it is you do and have more time to spend with your children.

[00:35:27 - 00:35:51]
 Exactly, exactly. I love the fact that you consciously brought in mindfulness into your approach, because that is exactly what I'm now helping people do. And I think that's spot on. That bringing in knowledge, wisdom, understanding, combined with mindfulness, that goes true for anything that we've ever been exposed to in life.

[00:35:51 - 00:36:45]
 Yeah, yeah. It was sort of like you mentioned, like, woo woo. Like, I was like, what is this? It just was something that was mystical, or not even mystical. It just. It was unfamiliar territory to me. And so noticing what that was bringing up for me, I was like, okay, let me give this a shot. Let me try and bring some curiosity to what this is all about. And it's neat. I'm still, again, I'm relatively new, but it's been very helpful in certain aspects of what I do, increasingly. So I mentioned cles. I may not have explained that for you, but in the legal world, continuing legal education. So I've noticed that there are more classes being offered on AI and the ways that it can be helpful in the work that we do within the legal sector.

[00:36:47 - 00:36:54]
 I love this, Courtney. Well, you are definitely, if you say yes, you're coming back. We're going deeper into this topic.

[00:36:54 - 00:37:06]
 I would love to. This has been fun, everything we've spoken about. And I welcome the opportunity to explore further not only about AI, but other areas. So, yeah, thank you.

[00:37:06 - 00:37:43]
 Yeah, absolutely. So many facets of mindfulness, and I just love hearing how your field of legal world is now embracing it and even in the technology world, becoming a little more understood, even like spiritual technologies, and how we under bring in the understanding of the human mind neuroplasticity to augment or expand our consciousness through these tools, which is wonderful. And I'll share more as we engage more.

[00:37:43 - 00:38:24]
 Great. I welcome that. And really interesting. I mean, the whole neuroplasticity end. I've been bringing that up a bit here and there in my own podcast show, but I think it's an area that we're only going to see grow and grow and grow in that intersection between mindfulness and neuroscience. So it's an exciting area. You're in a really exciting field, both from your meditation and from the more technological end. So I'm excited to see what you have to share and happy to contribute in any way I can from the mindfulness perspective.

[00:38:24 - 00:38:30]
 Same here. And I look forward to connecting with you. Well, thank you, Courtney. I hope you have a lovely day.

[00:38:30 - 00:38:31]
 You as well.